getting suspicious - no sides even at 10iu hgh

[Catteni]

When sleep problems happen to patients on legit rHGH therapy, it's attributed to borderline sleep apnea unmasked by the deeper breathing increased levels of GH induce and/or water retention induced swelling of soft tissue in the neck blocking the airway also resulting in sleep apnea.

Curious if you are in the medical field in any capacity?

 

[Catteni]

I'm currently taking 400mg mag glyc, 600mg ashwagandha, 3g glycine, 200mg l-theanine, and 50mg apigenin as my "sleep time" stack It helps a lot with winding down and reducing stress before bed, but not enough to counter the RHR rise apparently.

Nice sleep stack.

 

[PCT4ME]

Curious if you are in the medical field in any capacity?

No, but for various reasons I read countless medical journals and stay on top of leading edge medical developments. I'm always happy to substantiate anything I state with credible sources.

I don't like surprises and since sleep issues related to rHGH are discussed endlessly without a solid explanation I dove into whether this was an issue in legit medicine. And it is.

There are dozens of peer reviewed, published studies on disturbed sleep and rHGH, and they all come back to obstructive sleep apnea in one form or another, often from swollen tonsils and/or adenoids blocking the airway.

• “rhGH therapy can improve lung function … however, it can also trigger or worsen obstructive sleep apnea or hypoventilation in some.”

Sleep apnea in patients receiving growth hormone - PubMed

Among 145 patients treated with recombinant human growth hormone (GH), four developed sleep apnea (two obstructive, two mixed) associated with tonsillar and adenoidal hypertrophy in three. These four patients had no local risk factors predisposing to upper airway obstruction (i.e., frequent...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Increased neck soft tissue mass and worsening of obstructive sleep apnea after growth hormone treatment in men with abdominal obesity - PubMed

GH treatment increased the severity of OSA in abdominally obese men. The possible mechanism appears to be reflected by the GH-induced increase of measures of neck volume. The present results, to some extent, argue against that low GH/IGF-I activity is a primary cause of OSA in abdominally obese men.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The Impact of Growth Hormone Therapy on Sleep-Related Health Outcomes in Children with Prader–Willi Syndrome: A Review and Clinical Analysis - PMC

This literature review of growth hormone (GH) therapy and sleep-related health outcomes in children diagnosed with Prader–Willi syndrome (PWS) assembles evidence for the consequences of sleep deprivation and poor sleep quality: difficulty ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Sometimes diuretics are used to reduce tonsil area swelling to relieve sleep apnea, and tonsil removal seems to almost always work. I had my tonsils removed as a child and haven't ever had rHGH related sleep problems. That's not proof of much, but it could be the reason.

 

[workout1234]

Might explain why some people swear hgh helps their sleep and others say it makes it worse.

 

[PCT4ME]

Might explain why some people swear hgh helps their sleep and others say it makes it worse.

100%, aligns perfectly with the overall experiences people report.

Also AAS use causes tongue and larynx hypertrophy, edema in the same tissues as rHGH, both narrowing air passages, along with hematocrit cutting down on oxygen delivery from thickened blood, etc.

I wonder if guys using cPAP still have sleep issues on rHGH.

 

[BBBG]

100%, aligns perfectly with the overall experiences people report.

Also AAS use causes tongue and larynx hypertrophy, edema in the same tissues as rHGH, both narrowing air passages, along with hematocrit cutting down on oxygen delivery from thickened blood, etc.

I wonder if guys using cPAP still have sleep issues on rHGH.

Yes. I have sleep apnea and I’m using a CPAP machine already, and I experience shitty sleep if I take HGH in the evening but I’m totally fine when I take it in the morning.

If HGH causes swelling of the tonsils, edema and narrowing of the air passages, those wouldn’t go away within a 24 hour span.

I’d bet it has something to do with the sleep cycle. Probably the increased RHR. I don’t know though. I always thought the “HGH makes me sleep like a baby” reviews were placebo.

 

[PCT4ME]

Yes. I have sleep apnea and I’m using a CPAP machine already, and I experience shitty sleep if I take HGH in the evening but I’m totally fine when I take it in the morning.

If HGH causes swelling of the tonsils, edema and narrowing of the air passages, those wouldn’t go away within a 24 hour span.

I’d bet it has something to do with the sleep cycle. Probably the increased RHR. I don’t know though. I always thought the “HGH makes me sleep like a baby” reviews were placebo.

I should've probably pointed out that if we're referring to medical treatment, we're talking medical doses, ie, under 4iu.

4iu+, there's the swelling, plus an increase in sympathetic tone. Basically, you create more beta receptors and become more sensitive to norepinephrine, getting increased RHR, higher BP, and more stressed.

There's a cool 5th generation Calcium Channel Blocker (same class as amlodipine) blood pressure med only used in Japan and India called Benedipine that lowers sympathetic tone without making you drowsy like a beta blocker. I suspect it might help with the deep sleep interfering effects of supraphysiologic doses of rHGH along with lowering BP and RHR.

Lowest sides of any BP med as well. (1-2% vs 30% for something like Amlodipine). Cheap from India sources.

 

[hexagonal]

I sleep pretty well on 4IU, use a CPAP. I take it once per day before bed. I feel like it makes me a bit sleepier about 30 minutes after injection but I don't really have empirical data there so won't really make any argument besides "lol feelz"

When I'm on HGH it increases my RHR pretty persistently - it doesn't really dip between injections, takes a few days to taper off, so morning injection wouldn't help there. But it doesn't seem to make significant impact on my sleep quality, and HRV doesn't seem to change much vs. before I started taking HGH either.

 

[PCT4ME]

I sleep pretty well on 4IU, use a CPAP. I take it once per day before bed. I feel like it makes me a bit sleepier about 30 minutes after injection but I don't really have empirical data there so won't really make any argument besides "lol feelz"

When I'm on HGH it increases my RHR pretty persistently - it doesn't really dip between injections, takes a few days to taper off, so morning injection wouldn't help there. But it doesn't seem to make significant impact on my sleep quality, and HRV doesn't seem to change much vs. before I started taking HGH either.

Your experience with RHR makes sense since the increased beta receptor expression from rHGH is persistent and it takes a while for the number of receptors to drop back to baseline, according to the studies that looked at that. Sometimes up to a month after rHGH is stopped, but it varies a lot between individuals.

 

[workout1234]

I sleep pretty well on 4IU, use a CPAP. I take it once per day before bed. I feel like it makes me a bit sleepier about 30 minutes after injection but I don't really have empirical data there so won't really make any argument besides "lol feelz"

When I'm on HGH it increases my RHR pretty persistently - it doesn't really dip between injections, takes a few days to taper off, so morning injection wouldn't help there. But it doesn't seem to make significant impact on my sleep quality, and HRV doesn't seem to change much vs. before I started taking HGH either.

It would seem logical that the impact on RHR (and potentially HRV, and sleep quality) are dose dependent. So the unfortunate truth for me might just be that I need to back my dose down to a point where my sleep isn't impacted, since my intuition is that high quality restful sleep is more important than a couple more IU of hgh to my overall health and progress. I recently bumped down from 10iu to 7iu (and moved to post-workout), so I'm monitoring the metrics and will give it a week before making a call on if it's helping and needs to be further reduced or not.

 

[Catteni]

Yes. I have sleep apnea and I’m using a CPAP machine already, and I experience shitty sleep if I take HGH in the evening but I’m totally fine when I take it in the morning.

If HGH causes swelling of the tonsils, edema and narrowing of the air passages, those wouldn’t go away within a 24 hour span.

I’d bet it has something to do with the sleep cycle. Probably the increased RHR. I don’t know though. I always thought the “HGH makes me sleep like a baby” reviews were placebo.

I have OSA, no CPAP. Mouth breather, narrow palate, tongue thruster, bad snorer per the wife. AAS and HGH seem to of helped both anecdotally. Up to 3iu and sleeping like a baby. Bolus few hours before bed. Also take mag so muddys the picture.

 

[Catteni]

It would seem logical that the impact on RHR (and potentially HRV, and sleep quality) are dose dependent. So the unfortunate truth for me might just be that I need to back my dose down to a point where my sleep isn't impacted, since my intuition is that high quality restful sleep is more important than a couple more IU of hgh to my overall health and progress. I recently bumped down from 10iu to 7iu (and moved to post-workout), so I'm monitoring the metrics and will give it a week before making a call on if it's helping and needs to be further reduced or not.

If you do PWO what do you do about carb consumption timing until bedtime?

 

[workout1234]

If you do PWO what do you do about carb consumption timing until bedtime?

Honestly I don't worry about it too much. I just started PWO (was doing it 30-45m before bed until 3 days ago). My workout is first thing in the morning, so PWO means I'm having my dose around 7:30-8am. The majority of my carbs (~220-250g out of 350g) are taken around my workout (pre, during, and post) so when I take it post I'm coinciding with my largest insulin spike for post-workout. I don't know if that's good or bad (I'm also taking berberine with that meal too). Then I am fairly low carb the rest of the day. largest next meal is lunch which is typically < 80g carbs, and then my evening meal (2-3hrs before bed) is typically < 20g. I may try moving the dose to with (or right after) my evening meal, which would put it 2-3hrs before bedtime. That seems to be what a few folks here are recommending, and if it's better for carb/insulin resistance and daytime lethargy (which I haven't felt) then why not, assuming it doesn't bother my sleep.

 

[Catteni]

Honestly I don't worry about it too much. I just started PWO (was doing it 30-45m before bed until 3 days ago). My workout is first thing in the morning, so PWO means I'm having my dose around 7:30-8am. The majority of my carbs (~220-250g out of 350g) are taken around my workout (pre, during, and post) so when I take it post I'm coinciding with my largest insulin spike for post-workout. I don't know if that's good or bad (I'm also taking berberine with that meal too). Then I am fairly low carb the rest of the day. largest next meal is lunch which is typically < 80g carbs, and then my evening meal (2-3hrs before bed) is typically < 20g. I may try moving the dose to with (or right after) my evening meal, which would put it 2-3hrs before bedtime. That seems to be what a few folks here are recommending, and if it's better for carb/insulin resistance and daytime lethargy (which I haven't felt) then why not, assuming it doesn't bother my sleep.

Same on not worrying too much. Sounds like a solid plan. Sometimes I will take it pre OR post workout and still eat a meal. Or post and 1-2 hours before bed. Typically lower carb overall. Prior history with keto and carb cycling.

 

[Sector]

Honestly I don't worry about it too much. I just started PWO (was doing it 30-45m before bed until 3 days ago). My workout is first thing in the morning, so PWO means I'm having my dose around 7:30-8am. The majority of my carbs (~220-250g out of 350g) are taken around my workout (pre, during, and post) so when I take it post I'm coinciding with my largest insulin spike for post-workout. I don't know if that's good or bad (I'm also taking berberine with that meal too). Then I am fairly low carb the rest of the day. largest next meal is lunch which is typically < 80g carbs, and then my evening meal (2-3hrs before bed) is typically < 20g. I may try moving the dose to with (or right after) my evening meal, which would put it 2-3hrs before bedtime. That seems to be what a few folks here are recommending, and if it's better for carb/insulin resistance and daytime lethargy (which I haven't felt) then why not, assuming it doesn't bother my sleep.

Insulin sensitivity is also best post workout usually, so that definitely works.

Berberine is also a wonderful supplement on gh to keep blood sugar and insulin sensitivity optimal.

I’d definitely givw the 2-3 hours before bed thing a try sometime though. At worst you don’t like it and just move it back to a more optimal time. As long as you get the gh in Its really just about works best for you. Not worth losing sleep over

 

[workout1234]

Late follow up on this, but Quest is taking forever on getting my test results back to me. Finally got the IGF-1 results. Results seem good, I had dropped to 7iu/day the week leading up to the bloodwork (down from 10iu/day for the previous 2 weeks, and had titrated up to 10 prior to that). This is on the K4L Standard batch "K" kits. I did switch to Opti gold tops 2 days ago just to see if I can feel any difference, but I have plenty of K4L left that I'll probably finish off first before fully switching to the golds. The only "feelz" difference I've noticed when I switched to the golds, which can totally be unrelated coincidence, is that I was hit with some pretty strong drowsiness/lethargy midday (I moved my hgh dose to post-workout in the AM to try and minimize sleep disruptions). With that kind of drowsiness, maybe moving it back to evening might be best. Unless of course the sleepiness has nothing to do with the hgh and is more an accumulated affect of sleep issues I'm trying to sort out

 

[BBBG]

Late follow up on this, but Quest is taking forever on getting my test results back to me. Finally got the IGF-1 results. Results seem good, I had dropped to 7iu/day the week leading up to the bloodwork (down from 10iu/day for the previous 2 weeks, and had titrated up to 10 prior to that). This is on the K4L Standard batch "K" kits. I did switch to Opti gold tops 2 days ago just to see if I can feel any difference, but I have plenty of K4L left that I'll probably finish off first before fully switching to the golds. The only "feelz" difference I've noticed when I switched to the golds, which can totally be unrelated coincidence, is that I was hit with some pretty strong drowsiness/lethargy midday (I moved my hgh dose to post-workout in the AM to try and minimize sleep disruptions). With that kind of drowsiness, maybe moving it back to evening might be best. Unless of course the sleepiness has nothing to do with the hgh and is more an accumulated affect of sleep issues I'm trying to sort out

View attachment 7577

Those are really good results!

 

[workout1234]

Those are really good results!

I thought so too! Im pretty happy overall, especially now that I've been running things a bit longer I think I can see some more visible results from the hgh, and I've tolerated it really well with basically no sides even up to 10iu/day. Im not even convinced the rhr issue is actually the hgh, as I've been trying to systematically deduce the cause and its looking more likely to have been the daily l-carnitine and reta causing the rhr. Should have more concrete picture after a few more days or a week of monitoring changes to my protocol.

 

[Catteni]

I thought so too! Im pretty happy overall, especially now that I've been running things a bit longer I think I can see some more visible results from the hgh, and I've tolerated it really well with basically no sides even up to 10iu/day. Im not even convinced the rhr issue is actually the hgh, as I've been trying to systematically deduce the cause and its looking more likely to have been the daily l-carnitine and reta causing the rhr. Should have more concrete picture after a few more days or a week of monitoring changes to my protocol.

How long in total did you run before testing? I’m getting IGF and GH done end of this month. Titrated up to 4iu then jumped to 6.

 

[workout1234]

How long in total did you run before testing? I’m getting IGF and GH done end of this month. Titrated up to 4iu then jumped to 6.

I was on around 6-7 weeks at time of blood draw