Apexa - Deca, Mast, Primo, Tbol, Proviron Results

[Supermanlet9100]

This stuff was mostly source in March (just before the COVID-19 shitshow really blew up), aside from the Primo which came a bit later in the spring as Apexa had a shortage at the time. Put off testing it (and starting my blast with some of it) until this fall, because of said COVID-19 shitshow.

Deca (Nandrolone Decanoate)
Labeled concentration: 300 mg/ml
Tested concentration: 286.31 mg/ml
Results link: https://janoshik.com/tests/9320-AAS_oil_“2”_Q1JJM17RNWRG
Verdict: Real, and reasonably close (95%) to stated dose. I’m happy enough with that.

Mast E (Drostanolone Enanthate)
Labeled concentration: 250 mg/ml
Tested concentration: 209.81 mg/ml
Results link: https://janoshik.com/tests/9321-AAS_oil_“3”_FYPYWC8THVGM
Verdict: Real, but at 84% of stated dose, it’s weaker than it should be. Apexa is looking into the purity of his raws.

Primo (Mesterolone Enanthate)
Labeled concentration: 150 mg/ml
Tested concentration: 140 mg/ml
Results link: https://janoshik.com/tests/9322-AAS_oil_“4”_HY3ZXZNXJN2W
Verdict: Real, and reasonably close (93%) to stated dose. I’m happy enough with that.

Turinabol
Labeled dose: 25 mg capsule
Tested dose: 34.80 mg capsule
Results link: https://janoshik.com/tests/9355-AAS_capsule_“6”_HLT5ET5VPUG3
Verdict: Real and very significantly over-dosed at 139% of stated dose. Apexa isn’t sure what’s up here, as they “used milligram scales, and geometric dilution with v-type mixers” so the dosage should be consistent between caps. He does acknowledge the possibility of user error on his part.

Proviron (Methenolone)
Labeled dose: 25 mg capsule
Tested dose: 33.01 mg capsule of oxandrolone (Anavar)
Results link: https://janoshik.com/tests/9356-AAS_capsule_“7”_8PWRCN6ECK9J
Verdict: Over-dosed and contains the wrong compound, so this result is rather concerning. Janoshik re-tested another sample at my request and confirmed the result. I’ve been communicating back and forth with Apexa on this, and he’s looking into further testing of his raws, I believe. I don’t suspect anything malicious, as it would be idiotic to use a pricey raw like Anavar (let alone an overdosed amount of it) as the switch. It is concerning in terms of quality control, as either Janoshik erred in testing or Apexa erred in production, and I’m not in a position to judge either of them, so take it for what you will.

 

[Liska]

Proviron (Methenolone)
Labeled dose: 25 mg capsule
Tested dose: 33.01 mg capsule of oxandrolone (Anavar)

Reverse scams are a must buy!

 

[jaycutlerslefttestic]

@Supermanlet9100 Sounds like someone forgot to label their raws

 

[EnhancedGrappler]

Maybe we can get @apexalab to come speak to these results further…

 

[apexalab]

Wow, I don’t know how I missed this thread, but I apologize. As @Supermanlet9100 can attest to, he emailed me with all of this information, and I responded within hours, and we had a lengthy discussion. Since I am actually thankful for @supermanlet9100’s contribution to the community (I am truly all about furthering this community for the users - myself included, of course - since I think we’ve been long held back by us being generally treated like criminals and drug abusers), I’ll just post my response as I did to him. I am 100% transparent here, and am only interested in making Apexa - and thus, the community - better.

I will preface by saying that @Supermanlet9100 was reasonable and rational, and great to discuss a problem with. He’s representative of why Apexa only sources on this forum. I’ll also state that I think Janos is professional and entirely competent (he knows a LOT more than I do about this subject), and in no way am I critiquing his work - I’m simply trying to use logically deduce what’s going on here.

The first three are great, and fall probably exactly where their respective potencies lie. 95.5% for deca, 93.3% for Primo (happy to see this is real since it’s often faked, and although I tested when I first used this supplier, because of time constraints I can’t test every compound in every raw order), but the Mast is pretty poor. I have tested that raw before and I remember it was lower than what seemed like the norm for everything (92-96% kinda range), but I think it was at the 89-90% mark. I have some raw on hand, so I’m going to send it in and see how it tests. From the tests I’ve seen, I suspect Mast E is just a lower yield compound, so I can just adjust for this by adding 10% extra raw, which would put it in line with everything else. I’m sure you know that when you see these 99+% tests, that they are fake - typical yield in any chemical reaction is about 94%.

Tbol - I’m not sure what’s going on here, and it’s rather unlikely that we could possibly be off that much on the mixing! I mean, we used milligram scales, and geometric dilution with v-type mixers, so I simply don’t have an explanation here. Obviously, I would never purposefully overdose a compound by such a significant margin! The only possibilities that I can see are user error on my part, or user/equipment error on the tester end. I know, and have used, Janos, and think he’s absolutely professional and competent, so I’m not knocking him - I’m simply stating what the possibilities that I can think of are. The best I can do here is just to send some tbol caps off to be tested, as I can’t be sure what is going on. My procedures are quite strict, and I always take lab notes, but of course my partner and I are human, and error on our part may be the cause. We will definitely brainstorm, and reevaluate mixing/capping procedures to see how we can improve them - even if it was a simple boneheaded math error, there are weak points in any process that can be improved upon with strict evaluation.

Proviron - I’m having a very difficult time swallowing this one. It’s absolutely possible that a raw supplier (and I use who almost everybody else uses, so my raws will be the same as nearly every source) would ship oxandrolone in place of mesterlone, especially since they look practically indistinguishable from one another (most raws have physical characteristics that differentiate them, and once you’ve seen enough, you could probably pick 9/10 correct just by looking at them, smelling them, and their texture - and certainly by using this in conjunction with melting point). That said, they are priced the same (so the raw vendor’s incentive to bait and switch is non-existent), and when I use var the most I can use is about 80mg/day, since beyond that I get unbearable cramps and can’t even do basic daily functions without suffering from debilitating cramps, no matter how much water I drink. I quite regularly use 4 x proviron caps a day, which according to that test would mean I was taking 132mg of var a day! Furthermore, I’ve been using 4 x proviron a day for about 6 months now, and on 50mg of var for about a month - there’s simply no way I’m using 182mg of var per day, the bulk of it for 6 months! I can’t conclude anything but testing error on this one - there’s just no way I’m using such an insane dose of my favourite, most used compound and I don’t know it. That said, I have both raws on hand, and will do a melting point test as a quick way to get at least some level of reassurance as to their genuineness. I even have clients that use up to 200mg/day of proviron, which, if the caps actually were 33mg of anavar, they would be taking a whopping 264mg/day of anavar which I think is probably impossible for anyone, at any weight. Not to mention, some of them are using var at the same time!

So, I had some remaining raw (that is from the batch of product that you would have received) for the var and proviron, and actually just received a new batch of both. Testing the old and new batches yielded the same results: the Var and Proviron are most definitely different compounds. The Mesterlone melts at 215-218C, and the Oxandrolone at 228-230C. Furthermore, the var melts and forms these distinct wiry crystalline structures, while the proviron just melts into a liquid. They’re also clearly different compounds when viewed at magnification (I checked at 60-250x). Combine this with the fact that I can’t see, that in any humanly possible way, I’m on 180mg of var with no negative side effects (when my well-established max is ~80mg/day), I think it’s completely reasonable to conclude that there is error on Janos’s end.

Anyways, I genuinely appreciate what you’ve done here, and will send off some samples for testing right away to further look into it. I try to be as unbiased as possible in analyzing my work so that I can improve any given aspect, which this data will help me do.

 

[apexalab]

To be clear, I have samples being sent out for testing and will report back once that is complete. And remember, I’m always just an email away if you want to contact me about anything, or have any concerns. I typically respond within a couple of hours.

 

[Janoshik]

@apexalab said in Apexa - Deca, Mast, Primo, Tbol, Proviron Results:

I think it’s completely reasonable to conclude that there is error on Janos’s end.

No, there is was no error on my end as far as I can tell. I am looking at the raw data from 11th December right now and it’s clear as day.

There is no mistaking proviron and oxandrolone on HPLC and in that batch of samples there was exactly one single proviron sample, which was tested in direct succession to the AAS capsule labelled as “7” from this client, because it was pill labelled as “8” linked in this thread:

https://steroidsourcetalk.me/topic/11511/trans-pharma-deca-and-proviron-results?_=1609875749787

To underline the major difference between the proviron and anavar I cut out a comparison out of the raw data which were conducted less than five minutes away from each other:

https://imgur.com/a/kBa9CP4

Pictures of the samples and calibration data and full traceability is available as well.

 

[Janoshik]

@apexalab said in Apexa - Deca, Mast, Primo, Tbol, Proviron Results:

I’m sure you know that when you see these 99+% tests, that they are fake - typical yield in any chemical reaction is about 94%.

I missed this previously, but I would urge you to reconsider making a statement like that.

Because not only you are saying that not just me, but pretty much every single lab in the business has faked a good portion of the results, but you are also completely omitting the fact that there are processes for purification of any compound after synthesis that are simple enough to be taught in high school.

Such as recrystallisation - which is exactly the method that’s routinely used to purify anabolic steroids on industrial scale, while being simple enough to be done in an average kitchen.

 

[apexalab]

@Janoshik said in Apexa - Deca, Mast, Primo, Tbol, Proviron Results:

@apexalab said in Apexa - Deca, Mast, Primo, Tbol, Proviron Results:

I’m sure you know that when you see these 99+% tests, that they are fake - typical yield in any chemical reaction is about 94%.

I missed this previously, but I would urge you to reconsider making a statement like that.

Because not only you are saying that not just me, but pretty much every single lab in the business has faked a good portion of the results, but you are also completely omitting the fact that there are processes for purification of any compound after synthesis that are simple enough to be taught in high school.

Such as recrystallisation - which is exactly the method that’s routinely used to purify anabolic steroids on industrial scale, while being simple enough to be done in an average kitchen.

Right, that was definitely a mistake on my part. I’m sure you can tell from my statement that it was not accusatory, nor even suggestive of any wrongdoing on the part of others. While I strive to continuously educate myself, and improve my knowledge base, as I said, you are much more knowledgeable on this subject than I am! This was the reason I emailed you to inform you of this thread.

Thanks for weighing in, Janos. As you said to me in an email (“I cannot walk on > 100 mg var myself”), I can’t function on >90mg/day of Var, so I have no explanation of how I’ve been on 180mg/day for almost two months, and have a client that’s been on ~260mg/day.

In any case, samples are inbound to you, so I’m looking forward to the results.

 

[Janoshik]

@apexalab said in Apexa - Deca, Mast, Primo, Tbol, Proviron Results:

@Janoshik said in Apexa - Deca, Mast, Primo, Tbol, Proviron Results:

@apexalab said in Apexa - Deca, Mast, Primo, Tbol, Proviron Results:

I’m sure you know that when you see these 99+% tests, that they are fake - typical yield in any chemical reaction is about 94%.

I missed this previously, but I would urge you to reconsider making a statement like that.

Because not only you are saying that not just me, but pretty much every single lab in the business has faked a good portion of the results, but you are also completely omitting the fact that there are processes for purification of any compound after synthesis that are simple enough to be taught in high school.

Such as recrystallisation - which is exactly the method that’s routinely used to purify anabolic steroids on industrial scale, while being simple enough to be done in an average kitchen.

Right, that was definitely a mistake on my part. I’m sure you can tell from my statement that it was not accusatory, nor even suggestive of any wrongdoing on the part of others. While I strive to continuously educate myself, and improve my knowledge base, as I said, you are much more knowledgeable on this subject than I am! This was the reason I emailed you to inform you of this thread.

I understand, that’s why I merely provided a point of view that’d make you realize what was the issue with that statement. No hard feelings.

Cheers

 

[Supermanlet9100]

Wasn’t logged in for a week or two, glad to see there’s been some discussion on this since I last logged in.

@Janoshik said in Apexa - Deca, Mast, Primo, Tbol, Proviron Results:

Pictures of the samples and calibration data and full traceability is available as well.

I think pictures of the samples might be worth posting for transparency, to rule out the possibility of me messing up in packing and labeling the samples that I sent. I am, after all, another potential point of failure in the chain. Pictures of this sample should show red/white capsules, as used by @apexalab. I do have other product from Apexa with the same red/white colouring, but I didn’t order any Anavar from him (as he can attest) so I couldn’t have accidentally sent a sample of Anavar instead of Proviron.

The only other Anavar (which turned out to not be Anavar according to Janoshik results) that I had on hand was from GlobalPharma. That was sent to Janoshik in the same batch labeled as sample #5 and the results are in this thread: https://steroidsourcetalk.me/topic/11512/global-pharma-via-pg-anabolics-anavar-results. That sample was sent with the capsules emptied into sample jar, because GlobalPharma’s black/yellow capsules for Anavar are distinctly identifiable visually, and I wanted to eliminate any potential that there might be collusion between the tester and supplier if the tester were to recognize the unnamed supplier.

 

[bigjim73]

Glad to see how thorough this discussion has been. So the Proviron and Anavar issues are now resolved?

 

[apexalab]

@bigjim73 said in Apexa - Deca, Mast, Primo, Tbol, Proviron Results:

Glad to see how thorough this discussion has been. So the Proviron and Anavar issues are now resolved?

Sort of - I have definitive answers, but they suggest that much of the Proviron out there right now is actually Anavar.

Regarding testing:

I have all results back from Janos (all samples were sent to him labelled only by number), and have discussed results with him, as well as the raws supplier.

1. Several samples from several different orders indicate that the Proviron is indeed Anavar.

Labelled Proviron:
https://janoshik.com/tests/9735-AAS_raw_powder_"4"_XSQIK8AFV39Y

Labelled Anavar:
https://janoshik.com/tests/9737-AAS_raw_powder_"6"_YLKCN6PQF8QH

Labelled Anavar:
https://janoshik.com/tests/9739-AAS_raw_powder_"8"_KJKH16SKQGNZ

Labelled Proviron:
https://janoshik.com/tests/9740-AAS_raw_powder_"9"_3URF9VZ6X1S5

1. This Proviron comes from the largest supplier online, and from the same wholesaler that most of the smaller raws retailers buy from. The raw provider has informed me that the warehouse staff was putting Anavar in place of Proviron (I have this documented). This was three different orders over several months, so I’ll let you guys decide if I were singled out for some reason, or if that means every vendor has been getting var in place of proviron. The price for the raws are the same, so bait and switch for extra profit doesn’t make sense. My Primo from them is also good (as recently independently tested), so this further indicates a low likelihood of switching products simply to boost profit.
2. Neither Janos, nor myself, can explain why there were different melting points for the compounds labelled Anavar and the compounds labelled Proviron. Janos suggested that different impurities can affect melting points, which is absolutely true, however, in my admittedly limited experience, I have never seen it have such a drastic effect. Since I have nothing more than a few University-level organic chem courses, I asked him if it were possible that the two compounds were synthesized in different ways, garnering different physical characteristics in the same output compound, but he declined to comment. It bothers me not knowing, and that not everything adds up here, but I’m just going to continue to do more external testing (my hookup for local testing hasn’t been viable since COVID hit, so it will all be third party).
3. Mast E dosing accuracy - Finished Mast E comes out at 0.xx% difference from the raw assay. I’m happy with that, but we are going to adjust recipes to account for raw potency.

Raw:
https://janoshik.com/tests/9732-AAS_raw_powder_"1"_HJVBBZSAYGN5

Finished:
https://janoshik.com/tests/9766-AAS_oil_"10"_459ZWVE3YTHJ

1. Capsule dosing accuracy - This was supposed to be Proviron (you can see that I did quite a few tests on it to be 100% sure), but of course it was Anavar. I even impressed myself with the dosing being 0.05mg off, but I’ll admit that there’s some chance involved to get it that ridiculously accurate, haha!

Finished:
https://janoshik.com/tests/9742-AAS_capsule_"11"_NHZMNN9LC1HH

The raws provider indicated that they did not have Proviron available at this time, but should by March. I obviously won’t be selling any Proviron until then, and will be testing it first given what I know now.

 

[Liska]

@apexalab pretty sure any questions about these raws would fall within the definition of ‘AMA’ and be of widespread interest!

 

[apexalab]

@Liska Is this an indirect way of suggesting that I disclose the raws provider? I prefer not to pass the blame down the line, as I take full responsibility for what I sell. I did disclose that these raws came from a producer that supplies many sources, and have had another lab contact me thanking me for posting this, as they subsequently had their Proviron tested and it was indeed Anavar as well.

I do my best to protect my customers, and the general community as a whole, but it’s not my place to police other sources or raws providers, as there’s too much conflict of interest on my part. In any free market, the ultimate responsibility is on the end user - you choose which lab you place your trust in.

 

[Liska]

@apexalab You pretty much gave it away by saying “largest supplier online… that most of the smaller raw retailers buy from”.

Skipping way up the line, it’s ideally the factories that should test their raws properly before they leave the factory at all, or the middlemen that supply most labs, but since they don’t, “doing your best to protect your customers” means that you test every batch of raws you order and every batch of product you make, so the end user can make an informed and thus responsible choice based on more than trust - you saw what happened when making your decision based on just trust after all.

I don’t mean to derail your thread any further, there’s a ‘sources’ thread this topic might find a better home at if you’re up for it.

 

[Supermanlet9100]

I’m a month late replying to my own thread here, but tagging @EnhancedGrappler and @CaptainAmerica (because I hate this forum software and can’t find a way to message the admins other than tagging them by name). If the explanation above is true and there is some likelihood that multiple labs are unknowingly selling Anavar in place of Proviron, perhaps there should be some proactive effort to get labs to respond and confirm that their product has been tested?

 

[CaptainAmerica]

@Supermanlet9100 Messages have been and always will be disabled on SST. Even on the old software. Modmail is best if you wish to be private with your inquiry.

In responding to this thread, it is not a requirement that sources test their raws or product, however most tend to do so on a frequent basis. It adds value to their operation and provides you, the user, with a sense of confidence in purchasing their product.

Most if not all sources offer a great deal of credit for posting user results from @Janoshik It is considered more valuable for users to provide the backup of quality as one could argue the source is inherently bias to their own product.

Speaking from my time as a mod, I have seen raws be mislabeled, brews underdosed, and everything in between. But with the options we have above proving some buyer confidence and the general environment of caution given the subject matter, I would argue we have a fair system in place for checking these things.

Once a mistake has been noted, it is how the source may handle the mistake that may require moderator effort. As again, I have seen full refunds, full replacement of product, batch recalls but I have also seen the exit scams and other negative responses.