First "big boy" cycle

[Jiujitsumane]

Hey there,

Been dabbling in anabolics on and off for 5+ years - so far have only ran some 500mg test cycles with miscellaneous oral kickstarters (tbol and dbol) and typically come off completely and PCT. Am planning to move to blast n cruise now

Planning my first real "bulk" cycle and looking for some critiques on dosing

Current stats
6'0 tall
Body weight: 220
Bf% - 15-18% ish
Bench 345
Squat 445
Deadlift 505



Currently cruising on 200 mg of test e a week ( trt+) afte a 16 week blast of 500 test and 5 weeks of tbol

Goals:
15 - 20 pounds lean muscle gain
Strength gain - 1RM

Training split - Jeff nippard P/P/L program with some slight customizations

Diet- 250 p, 100 f, 350 c

Cycle:
14 weeks
500 test e / week over 2 injections
300 NPP / week over 3 injections
250 mast e / week over 2 injections
25 mg dbol for pre-workout 5 week kickstarter

Ancillaries
12.5 aromasin EOD
0.5 cabergoline on hand for as needed
100mg P5P daily
Defend cycle support (NAC, TUDCA, Milk thistle etc.)

Planning on NPP so I can quickly ditch it if I start seeing nasty sides
Considering I've never touched a 19-nor and only done test with the occasional oral, is this cycle overkill? Would it be better to drop the mast and ease into it?
I also have some primo that I'm saving for a cut. Would you recommend swapping the mast for primo?

Thanks!

 

[Guc_Nukem]

I would ditch the masteron and swap in primo if you can swing it, and also dial the Test down to your TRT dose.

Just make sure to up your calories accordingly whenever your weight starts to stagnate.

You probably will not need 12.5mg of aromasin EoD, so I would just plan as needed if I were you.

I don't think running 3 injectables is overkill, if you can tolerate/manage the sides, and the injection volume.

Otherwise looks fine.

 

[goodfella]

I'd personally stick with the Mast-e over primo as you're going to get more out of the Mast than the primo. Primo has been known to do some damage to guys sex drive as it can really lower e2 after a bit and honestly primo isn't the greatest if your looking to add size.

 

[Gainscity]

I know this is completely off what u were going to do but I’d get in single digit bf% first then blow up lean after. You will look much better when it’s all said and done.

 

[Jiujitsumane]

I know this is completely off what u were going to do but I’d get in single digit bf% first then blow up lean after. You will look much better when it’s all said and done.

I hear you, planning on a cut this summer once I'm healed up from my vasectomy, planning a test and anavar cut. Then cruise for a month or two at try levels and jump into this bulk in the fall through the winter

 

[Snowowl]

To be blunt, it looks like you first need to learn how to train hard and eat more food first. 5 years on and off with gear and you 6 ft, 220lbs 15% bf? Something isn’t right here..

I also notice you looking to gain 15-20lbs is muscle off this cycle. I don’t think you quite understand what 15-20lbs of muscle looks like. Generally in this game, 12lbs of muscle gain (actual muscle - meaning stage weight) is going to take 1 year for the genetically gifted individuals who meticulously diet and train very hard. 12lbs in one year is drastic. Imagine 12lbs of ground beef slapped on to your body as muscle, zero fat. You said you’re looking to gain this in a mere couple months. Not to be the bearer of bad new but the truth is that is not going to happen unless youre Kevin Levrone.

220lbs and your eating 350g of carbs for the entire day??? Are you just snacking all day? You should be around that by your 3/6 meal of the day. That is, if you want to gain 15-20lbs of muscle over the next year or two.

Ask anyone here who’s got a respectable physique and they will tell you the same. Worry less about the drugs and more about the fork work. Until you understand this you will not grow no matter how much gear you run.

How about this. Run the cycle you have listed, eat 6 meals a day. 50g protein/100g carbs each meal. Every day never missing no excuses. Train HARD and intense. You will start to grow some size.

 

[Snowowl]

Also as far as swapping Mast for primo.

250 primo you’re going to see almost nothing, such a small dose you will likely be disappointed.

250 mast is decent, it will have a nice hardening effect. If you start to eat big you will have a great full big look but with the added hardening and roundness from Mast. I say stick with Mast. More bang for your buck and I don’t think you’re ready for primo.

 

[Jiujitsumane]

Thanks fo

To be blunt, it looks like you first need to learn how to train hard and eat more food first. 5 years on and off with gear and you 6 ft, 220lbs 15% bf? Something isn’t right here..

I also notice you looking to gain 15-20lbs is muscle off this cycle. I don’t think you quite understand what 15-20lbs of muscle looks like. Generally in this game, 12lbs of muscle gain (actual muscle - meaning stage weight) is going to take 1 year for the genetically gifted individuals who meticulously diet and train very hard. 12lbs in one year is drastic. Imagine 12lbs of ground beef slapped on to your body as muscle, zero fat. You said you’re looking to gain this in a mere couple months. Not to be the bearer of bad new but the truth is that is not going to happen unless youre Kevin Levrone.

220lbs and your eating 350g of carbs for the entire day??? Are you just snacking all day? You should be around that by your 3/6 meal of the day. That is, if you want to gain 15-20lbs of muscle over the next year or two.

Ask anyone here who’s got a respectable physique and they will tell you the same. Worry less about the drugs and more about the fork work. Until you understand this you will not grow no matter how much gear you run.

How about this. Run the cycle you have listed, eat 6 meals a day. 50g protein/100g carbs each meal. Every day never missing no excuses. Train HARD and intense. You will start to grow some size.

Thanks for the feedback. I totally get what you're saying as a former skinny kid/hard gainer, most difficult part for me has always been getting that amount of food into me lol.
Hadn't been extremely consistent over the past five years, only a few cycles sprinkled in due to having kids and a knee injury, but now that my knee is healed up and my work schedule is more flexible I've been able to get really consistent in the gym in the past 6 months

I'll up the macros and run this

 

[Ruger]

You're barely scraping the surface at those doses...Keep experimenting with what you can tolerate with minimal sides and good luck with your goals

 

[makeway]

You’re making a few mistakes here. The “oral kickstarter” is a philosophy that has evolved since I began over 20 years ago. These days most including myself, prefer to use orals on the back end once your body has already acclimated to the injectables (if, you MUST use orals at all). These does a few different things. 1) allows your injectable’s to titrate up on their own, reducing sides and maximizing gains. 2) allows you to make the most out of your cycle as by using orals on the back end, your using them at a time you’re body has adapted to your androgenic load, and could benefit more; thus providing more gains.

For your goals and experience, I recommend 500 test/500primo/350npp. Drop the aromasin, you won’t need it with that primo dose. Drop the caber… you won’t need it with NPP as you can pull the NPP if you start getting crazy sides. Additionally, nandrolone grows the heart more than other steroids, caber also does the same. Stacking those two is a recipe for disaster.

Unless you realllllly want to run the dbol, I’d drop that shit too. 75% of those gains are water and fat, not to mention the increased aromitsarion and water retention. Just run var and keep what you gain. Dbol is fun, but…. Why yo-yo?

And FYI, I’m doing my own version of what I suggested for you right now. 20 weeks. First 10: 1000 test, 1000 primo, 350npp(first 5 weeks), 50var(last 5 weeks). Second 10: 1250 test 600 primo, 600 mast, 350 tren. All with HGH and insulin….

 

[Gainscity]

And FYI, I’m doing my own version of what I suggested for you right now. 20 weeks. First 10: 1000 test, 1000 primo, 350npp(first 5 weeks), 50var(last 5 weeks). Second 10: 1250 test 600 primo, 600 mast, 350 tren. All with HGH and insulin….

God damn that’s a heavy cycle. What’re ur stats? U must be a fucking monster to be running something like that

 

[makeway]

God damn that’s a heavy cycle. What’re ur stats? U must be a fucking monster to be running something like that

Haha. After 25 years of heavy lifting my body isn’t what it used to be so I stay <10%BF at 240ish lbs; so I do alright for myself.

But believe it or not, 1G test and 1G primo is quite light at that size/experience. It just looks high because primo/mast require higher dosages for mass phases. Either way, I would never recommend that to someone who can gain off less gear. It is truly a marathon.

 

[Bigdovis2]

This is about my last 3 bulking cycles except I leave out the orals and just use orals rarely for fun.

Use the mast to cancel out the npp sides (this is my experience)

Anything over 300 npp was too much, I got away with using 200 can kinda gained the same amount of weight from the bulk prior. Only things that changed w that was the mast & test.

Get bp meds as well just in case and keep on top of cardio.

Lastly in seeing a few people say swap it for primo, this is entirely up to you, but if I ran npp, primo, and test. I’d have 0 libido and I’d be crazy as shit.

Primo as it is lowers my libido (600/300 test primo right now), npp possible “deca dick” (I haven’t found caber rlly helps), I used to mast to keep libido up on npp, again this is all my experience.

Let’s just keep in mind everyone is different, @makeway has some good info in his response.

 

[makeway]

This is about my last 3 bulking cycles except I leave out the orals and just use orals rarely for fun.

Use the mast to cancel out the npp sides (this is my experience)

Anything over 300 npp was too much, I got away with using 200 can kinda gained the same amount of weight from the bulk prior. Only things that changed w that was the mast & test.

Get bp meds as well just in case and keep on top of cardio.

Lastly in seeing a few people say swap it for primo, this is entirely up to you, but if I ran npp, primo, and test. I’d have 0 libido and I’d be crazy as shit.

Primo as it is lowers my libido (600/300 test primo right now), npp possible “deca dick” (I haven’t found caber rlly helps), I used to mast to keep libido up on npp, again this is all my experience.

Let’s just keep in mind everyone is different, @makeway has some good info in his response.

That’s an excellent point. Everyone really does react completely different. For me, test/primo/NPP has me beating my meat 4x a day, whereas with others, their e2 crashes and they get zero libido. Tren for example, makes me feel amazing; with only minor disruptions in sleep and a bit of acid reflux. I get literally zero sides from NPP under 500mg whereas some get uncontrollable anxiety over 300

Point is, be sure to do your research and make an educated decision as to the dosages/combinations you run. At the end of the day, if you’re in this game long enough, you’ll eventually try everything at least once.

 

[Gainscity]

Haha. After 25 years of heavy lifting my body isn’t what it used to be so I stay <10%BF at 240ish lbs; so I do alright for myself.

But believe it or not, 1G test and 1G primo is quite light at that size/experience. It just looks high because primo/mast require higher dosages for mass phases. Either way, I would never recommend that to someone who can gain off less gear. It is truly a marathon.

I get primo is supposed to be ran high but still pushing close to 3 grams total plus hgh+slin. How does cholesterol+liver+kidneys look on blood work running doses like this?

 

[makeway]

I get primo is supposed to be ran high but still pushing close to 3 grams total plus hgh+slin. How does cholesterol+liver+kidneys look on blood work running doses like this?

Excellent. This is after 8 weeks (including var). My RHR is currently 73 and BP is 127/70 (with the help of Telmisartan and Nebivolol) But keep in mind, everyone responds differently and I am very experienced. I also feel like these days many people focus too much on the total mgs… which in my opinion doesn’t matter. 200mg of nandrolone or tren is much stronger than 1G of primo or mast… I could prob run 2G of primo/mast alone and tolerate it but you won’t ever catch me running over 350mg of tren or NPP..

 

[Gainscity]

Excellent. This is after 8 weeks (including var). My RHR is currently 78 and BP is 127/70 (with the help of Telmisartan and Nebivolol) But keep in mind, everyone responds differently and I am very experienced. I also feel like these days many people focus too much on the total mgs… which in my opinion doesn’t matter. 200mg of nandrolone or tren is much stronger than 1G of primo or mast… I could prob run 2G of primo/mast alone and tolerate it but you won’t ever catch me running over 350mg of tren or NPP..


View attachment 2881View attachment 2882View attachment 2883

That is excellent. My lipids tend to go out of wack on a blast. And I don’t run anything too crazy. I did start running more support supps and increasing fiber intake to help manage it better.

 

[Jiujitsumane]

Thanks guys, some stellar feedback here. Appreciate the insight