Test E 500mg vs 250mg a week

[AlcoholicAbe]

I have seen the majority of people reccomend 500mg of Test E a week for a beginner cycle. These people seem to believe: taking advantage of “virgin” androgen receptors, using highest safe dose as first cycle for best gains, 250mg a week will be barley more than replacing your own test levels, and both doses will suppress you. The minority who go with 250mg a week(or a bit more or less) state: less is more, and there will be less sides, and if starting higher at 500mg where will you go from there? If a beginner with an average test level of 600 were to run his first cycle after 4 years of lifting what would you reccomend and why?

 

[Dexter]

If you have a natural test level of 600, I recommend you don’t start on this stuff.

 

[egoliftlowbench]

idk im on 500mg but im a massive phaggot and recently upped to 750 of cyp and ive had no sides other than slight acne easily dealt with, and at 750 a bit more hair shedding but i think the keto and rogaine is making sure the follicles dont die even if my shit genes got me shedding. Estro? A bit more but nothing crazy on my part, sides can be a bit predictable based on compound and dose but also heavily genetic as well Id sa. I know people who can run a gram of test little to no AI and still have reasonable E2, although elevated, not too high to warrant an AI. Do you want to be drier? Maybe an AI is a good bet, but estro is important for gains so if youre trying to pack on mass enjoy areasonable amount of water weight but use enough AI to avoid spicy nips. I mean 250mg is good for someone with generally lower T, maybe 3-400 range. Not too much higher than a higher end TRT dose but def will see a significant boost with very little to no sides. its common sense youd have less sides at a dose that isnt supraphysiological. Wont be some 15-20 pound gain cycle but youll make some great gains no doubt assuming its your first run on the secret sauce
EDIT: Also what are your stats and reason for wanting to cycle? Test at 600 natty is bretty gud, albeit not the same as 2-4k ng/dl but what are you looking for man? Do the smart thing and double down on medical studies on test and other juicy juice, dont be a tard and hop on because you feel like you need it. Is AAS in line with your general life style and long term goals? Judging by this post probably not, read some medical studies and avoid the broscience broposts, use those as supplement to extensive research on this shit

 

[AlcoholicAbe]

egoliftlowbench" pid='67457' dateline='1567666678:

idk im on 500mg but im a massive phaggot and recently upped to 750 of cyp and ive had no sides other than slight acne easily dealt with, and at 750 a bit more hair shedding but i think the keto and rogaine is making sure the follicles dont die even if my shit genes got me shedding. Estro? A bit more but nothing crazy on my part, sides can be a bit predictable based on compound and dose but also heavily genetic as well Id sa. I know people who can run a gram of test little to no AI and still have reasonable E2, although elevated, not too high to warrant an AI. Do you want to be drier? Maybe an AI is a good bet, but estro is important for gains so if youre trying to pack on mass enjoy areasonable amount of water weight but use enough AI to avoid spicy nips. I mean 250mg is good for someone with generally lower T, maybe 3-400 range. Not too much higher than a higher end TRT dose but def will see a significant boost with very little to no sides. its common sense youd have less sides at a dose that isnt supraphysiological. Wont be some 15-20 pound gain cycle but youll make some great gains no doubt assuming its your first run on the secret sauce
EDIT: Also what are your stats and reason for wanting to cycle? Test at 600 natty is bretty gud, albeit not the same as 2-4k ng/dl but what are you looking for man? Do the smart thing and double down on medical studies on test and other juicy juice, dont be a tard and hop on because you feel like you need it. Is AAS in line with your general life style and long term goals? Judging by this post probably not, read some medical studies and avoid the broscience broposts, use those as supplement to extensive research on this shit

Seems like 500 would be more profitable. Anyway doc told me she wants my test levels be at 800-900. My E2 is low (has been for sometime). Tests levels were at 700 before hopping on Citalopram for depression/anxiety. Im thinking i’d feel my best in the 800-1000 range aswell, at this range E2 would also rise to a reasonable level. Currently doc wants to put me on a cream, I did not like this idea. Feel weak, fatigued day to day basis. Stats: 5 10, 170, 7% BF. Goal is to become a fitness model

 

[Dexter]

AlcoholicAbe" pid='67461' dateline='1567669673:

Seems like 500 would be more profitable. Anyway doc told me she wants my test levels be at 800-900. My E2 is low (has been for sometime). Tests levels were at 700 before hopping on Citalopram for depression/anxiety. Im thinking i’d feel my best in the 800-1000 range aswell, at this range E2 would also rise to a reasonable level. Currently doc wants to put me on a cream, I did not like this idea. Feel weak, fatigued day to day basis. Stats: 5 10, 170, 7% BF. Goal is to become a fitness model

First take stock of why you’re on SSRI. Depression and Anxiety, the two things that seem to be taking over everyone’s modern life.

Remove yourself from the things causing problems, just fucking walk away, it’s not worth wasting your life worrying about the things or people that are causing you problems. Simplify your life, get rid of the stress, if you’ve got someone on your ass, just tell them to piss off. Selfishness is a good thing, taking care of yourself is a good thing. We get too caught up in what others think and for that reason we go into this endless cycle of worry.

As for feeling better psychologically. 150mg Test-C/E, 150mg Masteron P/E. In about six weeks you’ll feel great. UGL is for me the only way to go, doctors suck, they control your regimen and they decide what you put in your body.

However first deal with the mental issues, modern life is toxic bullshit. Everyone is running around with Anxiety, killing themselves to keep up, staring at their smart phones, worried about keeping up their lifestyle, setting goals that lead to burnout. I’m glad I grew up in the 70’s and 80’s and know that all of this stuff we have today is causing us endless problems, because it sure didn’t exist back then like it does today.

 

[AlcoholicAbe]

Dexter" pid='67475' dateline='1567693486:

AlcoholicAbe" pid='67461' dateline='1567669673:

Seems like 500 would be more profitable. Anyway doc told me she wants my test levels be at 800-900. My E2 is low (has been for sometime). Tests levels were at 700 before hopping on Citalopram for depression/anxiety. Im thinking i’d feel my best in the 800-1000 range aswell, at this range E2 would also rise to a reasonable level. Currently doc wants to put me on a cream, I did not like this idea. Feel weak, fatigued day to day basis. Stats: 5 10, 170, 7% BF. Goal is to become a fitness model

First take stock of why you’re on SSRI. Depression and Anxiety, the two things that seem to be taking over everyone’s modern life.

Remove yourself from the things causing problems, just fucking walk away, it’s not worth wasting your life worrying about the things or people that are causing you problems. Simplify your life, get rid of the stress, if you’ve got someone on your ass, just tell them to piss off. Selfishness is a good thing, taking care of yourself is a good thing. We get too caught up in what others think and for that reason we go into this endless cycle of worry.

As for feeling better psychologically. 150mg Test-C/E, 150mg Masteron P/E. In about six weeks you’ll feel great. UGL is for me the only way to go, doctors suck, they control your regimen and they decide what you put in your body.

However first deal with the mental issues, modern life is toxic bullshit. Everyone is running around with Anxiety, killing themselves to keep up, staring at their smart phones, worried about keeping up their lifestyle, setting goals that lead to burnout. I’m glad I grew up in the 70’s and 80’s and know that all of this stuff we have today is causing us endless problems, because it sure didn’t exist back then like it does today.

Yeah 70, 80’s seem seemed really great wish I grew up then rather than now. Anyway, I know why I am on an SSRI i’ve tried going the no drug route for depression/anxiety for years and I was just going down hill. It seems to run in the family, but the way I grew up definitely contributed to it (therapist agreed with this). Currently I feel very bluh about life (better than feeling suicidal for years straight though). The way I see it is I can continue to feel bluh about life and die without living a great life, or take matters into my own hands. Sure, 500mg test E may be a stretch for feeling better. However, if im going to be suppressed then I thought I may aswell run a cycle before being on for life anyway. Thanks for the thoughtful response btw appreciate it Dexter

 

[Dexter]

AlcoholicAbe" pid='67484' dateline='1567698291:

Yeah 70, 80’s seem seemed really great wish I grew up then rather than now. Anyway, I know why I am on an SSRI i’ve tried going the no drug route for depression/anxiety for years and I was just going down hill. It seems to run in the family, but the way I grew up definitely contributed to it (therapist agreed with this). Currently I feel very bluh about life (better than feeling suicidal for years straight though). The way I see it is I can continue to feel bluh about life and die without living a great life, or take matters into my own hands. Sure, 500mg test E may be a stretch for feeling better. However, if im going to be suppressed then I thought I may aswell run a cycle before being on for life anyway. Thanks for the thoughtful response btw appreciate it Dexter

I’ve got bad news, test won’t make you feel better long term if you were already at 600. Test builds up over a period of weeks, you’ll notice your feeling great, then it plateaus and then you start wondering where that feeling went. You won’t feel like shit if you were someone that had test levels of say 300 or below, but you won’t feel like your on top of the world. Masteron is the thing you add for this, it brings calmness to the world.

I’ve never had depression, however I would consider myself hyper self aware having a tendency to over think everything, but I’m also a pessimist, atheist, realist, objectivist, and ultimately I face the fact that life only ends one way. Part of my mentality towards the mainstream life was born out of the punk scene I lived in of the 80’s and my disregard for authority and my preference for anarchy. Materialism, shallowness, bipolar, narcissism, and just plain old cuntism that you find so common today doesn’t make me want to stick around for much longer either. Some of the smartest people on the planet are suicidal or nihilist, if you’re not, you’re probably one of the billions of dumbasses inhabiting this planet. Krishnamurti said it best: “It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.” As for suicide I keep a special rope I bought for that job in one of my drawers, when it comes time to checkout, I’ll go that route, no shame in having full control of your life and death.

 

[AlcoholicAbe]

Dexter" pid='67486' dateline='1567700936:

AlcoholicAbe" pid='67484' dateline='1567698291:

Yeah 70, 80’s seem seemed really great wish I grew up then rather than now. Anyway, I know why I am on an SSRI i’ve tried going the no drug route for depression/anxiety for years and I was just going down hill. It seems to run in the family, but the way I grew up definitely contributed to it (therapist agreed with this). Currently I feel very bluh about life (better than feeling suicidal for years straight though). The way I see it is I can continue to feel bluh about life and die without living a great life, or take matters into my own hands. Sure, 500mg test E may be a stretch for feeling better. However, if im going to be suppressed then I thought I may aswell run a cycle before being on for life anyway. Thanks for the thoughtful response btw appreciate it Dexter

I’ve got bad news, test won’t make you feel better long term if you were already at 600. Test builds up over a period of weeks, you’ll notice your feeling great, then it plateaus and then you start wondering where that feeling went. You won’t feel like shit if you were someone that had test levels of say 300 or below, but you won’t feel like your on top of the world. Masteron is the thing you add for this, it brings calmness to the world.

I’ve never had depression, however I would consider myself hyper self aware having a tendency to over think everything, but I’m also a pessimist, atheist, realist, objectivist, and ultimately I face the fact that life only ends one way. Part of my mentality towards the mainstream life was born out of the punk scene I lived in of the 80’s and my disregard for authority and my preference for anarchy. Materialism, shallowness, bipolar, narcissism, and just plain old cuntism that you find so common today doesn’t make me want to stick around for much longer either. Some of the smartest people on the planet are suicidal or nihilist, if you’re not, you’re probably one of the billions of dumbasses inhabiting this planet. Krishnamurti said it best: “It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.” As for suicide I keep a special rope I bought for that job in one of my drawers, when it comes time to checkout, I’ll go that route, no shame in having full control of your life and death.

Man I understand you, this world is just so twisted. I am not very familiar with masteron. I know it gives a very lean look because it does not aromatize. How long have you been on masteron and has your LDL stayed in normal range? I’ve heard it lowers that a bunch, but all steroids do I suppose.

 

[thallandchill]

AlcoholicAbe" pid='67461' dateline='1567669673:

egoliftlowbench" pid='67457' dateline='1567666678:

idk im on 500mg but im a massive phaggot and recently upped to 750 of cyp and ive had no sides other than slight acne easily dealt with, and at 750 a bit more hair shedding but i think the keto and rogaine is making sure the follicles dont die even if my shit genes got me shedding. Estro? A bit more but nothing crazy on my part, sides can be a bit predictable based on compound and dose but also heavily genetic as well Id sa. I know people who can run a gram of test little to no AI and still have reasonable E2, although elevated, not too high to warrant an AI. Do you want to be drier? Maybe an AI is a good bet, but estro is important for gains so if youre trying to pack on mass enjoy areasonable amount of water weight but use enough AI to avoid spicy nips. I mean 250mg is good for someone with generally lower T, maybe 3-400 range. Not too much higher than a higher end TRT dose but def will see a significant boost with very little to no sides. its common sense youd have less sides at a dose that isnt supraphysiological. Wont be some 15-20 pound gain cycle but youll make some great gains no doubt assuming its your first run on the secret sauce
EDIT: Also what are your stats and reason for wanting to cycle? Test at 600 natty is bretty gud, albeit not the same as 2-4k ng/dl but what are you looking for man? Do the smart thing and double down on medical studies on test and other juicy juice, dont be a tard and hop on because you feel like you need it. Is AAS in line with your general life style and long term goals? Judging by this post probably not, read some medical studies and avoid the broscience broposts, use those as supplement to extensive research on this shit

Seems like 500 would be more profitable. Anyway doc told me she wants my test levels be at 800-900. My E2 is low (has been for sometime). Tests levels were at 700 before hopping on Citalopram for depression/anxiety. Im thinking i’d feel my best in the 800-1000 range aswell, at this range E2 would also rise to a reasonable level. Currently doc wants to put me on a cream, I did not like this idea. Feel weak, fatigued day to day basis. Stats: 5 10, 170, 7% BF. Goal is to become a fitness model

First off man, congrats on having a fucking goal. That’s key. Second off, coming from another person who takes medication for anxiety, I understand where you’re coming from. Third off, Dexter is the most depressing motherfucker to listen to on this board. He seems like an intelligent dude and knows a lot about this shit, but his whole mentality is absolutely fucked.

There are people who look at shit with a “I can find some good in this, I can make this work” mentality and others with a “everything sucks, it’s never going to get better, what’s the point” mentality (like Dexter). Be like the former not the latter.

Anyway, onto the AAS usage. You’re going to do what you want. My first blast was 500mg Test E several years ago and it was fucking fantastic. Zero regrets. If your E2 is low, you might actually benefit from the extra Test because it should raise your e2 in conjunction with it.

So, the main points to keep in mind during a blast are, A.) Make sure you’re eating enough, but not eating so much you become a fat fuck in the process and have hell losing the weight. B.) Work your ass off in the gym, and C.) Get plenty of rest.

You need to have a plan after your blast as well, do you plan on cruising or going through PCT after your cycle?

 

[AlcoholicAbe]

@“thallandchill”

Plan to taper off 500mg and get to cruising around 150mg Test E to keep test in high normal after cycle. I believe the higher E2 could help as well. I know AI’s come with their own sides, so I rather see if I get high E2 sides before introducing Armidex. Going to get bloods taken either as soon as I see high E2 sides, or after I am deep enough into cycle (maybe 3 weeks) to see exact dosage of AI needed. What’s your stance on AI’s?

 

[MEAUX]

My buddy who’s 36 recently got his natty test results and they were low…the doc prescribed him TRT and hes only taking 150mg of Cyp a week… when he went back a month or so later to check up his test was in the “high normal” range (forgot number) and he’s making plenty of gains. Moral of story get your shit checked and 250-300 is often way more than people give credit for.

 

[AlcoholicAbe]

MEAUX" pid='67570' dateline='1567740137:

My buddy who’s 36 recently got his natty test results and they were low…the doc prescribed him TRT and hes only taking 150mg of Cyp a week… when he went back a month or so later to check up his test was in the “high normal” range (forgot number) and he’s making plenty of gains. Moral of story get your shit checked and 250-300 is often way more than people give credit for.

True man, 250-300 is still way more than natty range.

 

[Dexter]

thallandchill" pid='67559' dateline='1567736534:

That’s key. Second off, coming from another person who takes medication for anxiety, I understand where you’re coming from. Third off, Dexter is the most depressing motherfucker to listen to on this board. He seems like an intelligent dude and knows a lot about this shit, but his whole mentality is absolutely fucked.

There are people who look at shit with a “I can find some good in this, I can make this work” mentality and others with a “everything sucks, it’s never going to get better, what’s the point” mentality (like Dexter). Be like the former not the latter.

I’ve never been depressed in my life. One of the nicest guys most people will ever meet. I look at the darker side of life, it’s not a mental disorder or disease, it’s just an observation that something is really fucked up and no one seems to care, we’re all told to think sunshine and rainbows.

Humanity was once on a path of progress, mass optimism was probably fairly strong in the 50,60,70,80’s and then the progress stalled, people started questioning the program, they couldn’t adjust and some started looking for answers. Sensitive people either do two things, they read and look for answers, or they can go the route of most people and start popping pills to numb their experience and make themselves well adjusted to the requirements necessary to function in a sick society. Those that don’t take this route are probably called slackers today, in years past they might have been punks, in the 60’s beat writers, 2500 years in the past ascetics. That’s what kind of pisses me off about the drugs that mask mental issues, these people are in fact correctly responding to the situation in front of them and instead of addressing it full on, they agree to a chemical lobotomy. It’s simple, you have anxiety, you know something is wrong, your mind wants mutiny from this situation, the professional the authority comes along and says “everything is fine, problem is with you”, here’s your pills, take these and stfu.

 

[thallandchill]

Dexter" pid='67595' dateline='1567781010:

thallandchill" pid='67559' dateline='1567736534:

That’s key. Second off, coming from another person who takes medication for anxiety, I understand where you’re coming from. Third off, Dexter is the most depressing motherfucker to listen to on this board. He seems like an intelligent dude and knows a lot about this shit, but his whole mentality is absolutely fucked.

There are people who look at shit with a “I can find some good in this, I can make this work” mentality and others with a “everything sucks, it’s never going to get better, what’s the point” mentality (like Dexter). Be like the former not the latter.

I’ve never been depressed in my life. One of the nicest guys most people will ever meet. I look at the darker side of life, it’s not a mental disorder or disease, it’s just an observation that something is really fucked up and no one seems to care, we’re all told to think sunshine and rainbows.

Humanity was once on a path of progress, mass optimism was probably fairly strong in the 50,60,70,80’s and then the progress stalled, people started questioning the program, they couldn’t adjust and some started looking for answers. Sensitive people either do two things, they read and look for answers, or they can go the route of most people and start popping pills to numb their experience and make themselves well adjusted to the requirements necessary to function in a sick society. Those that don’t take this route are probably called slackers today, in years past they might have been punks, in the 60’s beat writers, 2500 years in the past ascetics. That’s what kind of pisses me off about the drugs that mask mental issues, these people are in fact correctly responding to the situation in front of them and instead of addressing it full on, they agree to a chemical lobotomy.

I’m not saying you have been depressed, are depressed or that you’re not a nice guy because you seem like you genuinely want to help people. I just disagree with your worldview, and I think it is toxic, brother.

People are the way they are because of the world, and the way they let it influence them. Social media is probably the biggest offender in all of this. People only post to social media the high points or best times of their lives. People see this and subconsciously, they’re conditioning their own mind and wondering why their lives aren’t like someone else’s. Guess what? Those people posting only the good have just as much bad going on as you or I.

I agree with you, that the world is extremely screwed up but there is also a lot of good in the world if you look for it. And I am constantly seeking it, and trying to do my part to make the world a better place.

I used to be a lot more depressed and anxious, but since I’ve deleted all of my social media, deleted everything I could from my phone, I’m so much happier now. I care little for the things of this world. I attribute that to me finding God this past year. It has completely transformed me and my world view.

I spent years studying science, philosophy etc., I’m absolutely obsessed with space. I thought I was too smart to believe in a God, or divine creation but the answers were right there in front of me and I was just willfully ignorant. I can’t chalk any of this up to “chance”. It doesn’t work.

Do I still question things? Absolutely. However, I am at peace now and it is absolutely liberating.

 

[Dexter]

thallandchill" pid='67600' dateline='1567782835:

I’m not saying you have been depressed, are depressed or that you’re not a nice guy because you seem like you genuinely want to help people. I just disagree with your worldview, and I think it is toxic, brother.

People are the way they are because of the world, and the way they let it influence them. Social media is probably the biggest offender in all of this. People only post to social media the high points or best times of their lives. People see this and subconsciously, they’re conditioning their own mind and wondering why their lives aren’t like someone else’s. Guess what? Those people posting only the good have just as much bad going on as you or I.

I agree with you, that the world is extremely screwed up but there is also a lot of good in the world if you look for it. And I am constantly seeking it, and trying to do my part to make the world a better place.

I used to be a lot more depressed and anxious, but since I’ve deleted all of my social media, deleted everything I could from my phone, I’m so much happier now. I care little for the things of this world. I attribute that to me finding God this past year. It has completely transformed me and my world view.

I spent years studying science, philosophy etc., I’m absolutely obsessed with space. I thought I was too smart to believe in a God, or divine creation but the answers were right there in front of me and I was just willfully ignorant. I can’t chalk any of this up to “chance”. It doesn’t work.

Do I still question things? Absolutely. However, I am at peace now and it is absolutely liberating.

So you believe in Yahweh, the middle eastern mythical god that was part of the Canaanite pantheon, or more of deistic god that doesn’t leave inerrant dogmatic scriptures to follow like “cutting your wifes hand off and showing her no pity” Deut 25:12, or stoning your daughter to death when she’s found to possibly not be a virgin on her wedding night.

What bought peace to me was being bitten by a hundred misquotes last night and knowing only a f*cking psychopath would create such creatures…so either there’s a god that is off its rocker or no god and this is what you’ve got, so deal with it.

Hows that for toxic?

 

[Primobro]

thallandchill" pid='67600' dateline='1567782835:

Dexter" pid='67595' dateline='1567781010:

thallandchill" pid='67559' dateline='1567736534:

That’s key. Second off, coming from another person who takes medication for anxiety, I understand where you’re coming from. Third off, Dexter is the most depressing motherfucker to listen to on this board. He seems like an intelligent dude and knows a lot about this shit, but his whole mentality is absolutely fucked.

There are people who look at shit with a “I can find some good in this, I can make this work” mentality and others with a “everything sucks, it’s never going to get better, what’s the point” mentality (like Dexter). Be like the former not the latter.

I’ve never been depressed in my life. One of the nicest guys most people will ever meet. I look at the darker side of life, it’s not a mental disorder or disease, it’s just an observation that something is really fucked up and no one seems to care, we’re all told to think sunshine and rainbows.

Humanity was once on a path of progress, mass optimism was probably fairly strong in the 50,60,70,80’s and then the progress stalled, people started questioning the program, they couldn’t adjust and some started looking for answers. Sensitive people either do two things, they read and look for answers, or they can go the route of most people and start popping pills to numb their experience and make themselves well adjusted to the requirements necessary to function in a sick society. Those that don’t take this route are probably called slackers today, in years past they might have been punks, in the 60’s beat writers, 2500 years in the past ascetics. That’s what kind of pisses me off about the drugs that mask mental issues, these people are in fact correctly responding to the situation in front of them and instead of addressing it full on, they agree to a chemical lobotomy.

I’m not saying you have been depressed, are depressed or that you’re not a nice guy because you seem like you genuinely want to help people. I just disagree with your worldview, and I think it is toxic, brother.

People are the way they are because of the world, and the way they let it influence them. Social media is probably the biggest offender in all of this. People only post to social media the high points or best times of their lives. People see this and subconsciously, they’re conditioning their own mind and wondering why their lives aren’t like someone else’s. Guess what? Those people posting only the good have just as much bad going on as you or I.

I agree with you, that the world is extremely screwed up but there is also a lot of good in the world if you look for it. And I am constantly seeking it, and trying to do my part to make the world a better place.

I used to be a lot more depressed and anxious, but since I’ve deleted all of my social media, deleted everything I could from my phone, I’m so much happier now. I care little for the things of this world. I attribute that to me finding God this past year. It has completely transformed me and my world view.

I spent years studying science, philosophy etc., I’m absolutely obsessed with space. I thought I was too smart to believe in a God, or divine creation but the answers were right there in front of me and I was just willfully ignorant. I can’t chalk any of this up to “chance”. It doesn’t work.

Do I still question things? Absolutely. However, I am at peace now and it is absolutely liberating.

Amen to that bro… I’m no bible thumper but I’ve been through some self inflicted hell in my life during my active years of addiction and I can tell you that if it weren’t for my belief in God, I wouldn’t be here today. I HAVE to look for the good in the world on a daily basis because I’m not strong enough to keep away from “mind altering” substances to numb out all the negative if I focus on it. Obviously some days are better than others but as a whole, life is much more pleasant this way. You and @“Dexter” both bring awesome arguments to the table… I feel like I’m actually taking away some wisdom when you two go at it. Thank you both for the educational entertainment