Mystery Estrogen

[cmlaracy]

Going to try and keep this quick but it’s complicated. I was on a cycle of 100mg test, 175mg trest, 300mg nandrolone, and 600-800mg boldenone per week. Throughout the cycle all I needed was 12.5mg aromasin EoD. Estrogen was DIALED in for 18 weeks.

Then I decided to come off my painkillers as I no longer needed them; I have psoriatic arthritis. I was on ~200mg of oxycodone a day and some oxymorphone (I know). Last time I came off opiates I was natural and had a huge estrogen spike as my system came back online - opiates suppress my natty test by 75%. It made the weeks after the first acute week hell; I was natural so I didn’t have any AI’s.

This time I figured that wouldn’t happen; I’m completely shut down from Trest and Nand… I lowered my doses significantly for the week I’d withdraw as I wouldn’t be lifting. Did it cold turkey in 7 days.

About 3 or 4 days after the 7 day acute phase, my estrogen MASSIVELY spikes, so much I can’t sleep for 4 straight days. So I cut out everything except test and one last dose of EQ for it’s AI properties as 25mg aromasin ED wasn’t cutting it. I’m now down to nothing but 150mg test a week and still have high estrogen symptoms taking 25mg aromasin every damn day (with a high fat meal).

Here’s the kicker: I’ve been taking 25mg aromasin ED for over two weeks and I STILL cant get my estrogen down. No they aren’t bunk, they worked all cycle long and are from CML. So to get things a bit more under control I added in 40mg nolva ED.

So for almost 3 weeks I’ve been taking 25mg aromasin and 40mg Nolvadex ED and my estrogen is still out of range. On TRT test only! I have arthritis, I’d know if my estrogen was low after taking one step. Besides, I have every high estrogen symptom in the book.

The only thing I can come up with is that despite being on highly suppressive gear, my system is trying to bounce back from the removal of the massive dose of opiates (was on them for a while too) and so I’m going through a mini post cycle estrogen rebound. Literally only thing I can think of. I can’t even take my damn HCG because 250iu’s has me hot-flashing like a menopausal woman.

Anyone have ANY ideas? I’m stumped. Where THE FUCK is this estrogen coming from?!

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Is this on bloods or feel?

 

[cmlaracy]

CaptainAmerica" pid='34167' dateline='1544848264:

Is this on bloods or feel?

Both, bloods were when I still had some methyl estrogen in me from the trest so they weren’t too accurate but were still way out of range.

I don’t get acne, now I’m fighting it like crazy. My skin is always dry, now it’s covered in oil. Regular hot flashes. Insomnia. Any little thing gets me choked up. Holding water under my skin like a bitch. Name a high E2 symptom I have it.

 

[system]

Sounds like the estrogen fairy to me. A lil’ pair of tits for you, you, and you!

 

[cmlaracy]

kingofcarbz" pid='34171' dateline='1544848997:

Sounds like the estrogen fairy to me. A lil’ pair of tits for you, you, and you!

Thank fuck I had the nolva, titties chilled out. I have letro and ralox coming in I’m done fucking around I want to crash this shit so I can take my damn HCG without losing my mind to high estro symptoms. (I get baaaaad estrogen insomnia, it’s hell)

 

[Fatbricks]

if you were on opiates for a long time, there is a good chance that the not sleeping for 4 days is a symptom of opiate withdraw. I used to be a drug addict for many years, and kicking heroin (opiates) is nothing nice… if you weren’t on opiates for a long time then disregard this comment. Just something that popped out at me from this post.

 

[cmlaracy]

Fatbricks" pid='34174' dateline='1544849389:

if you were on opiates for a long time, there is a good chance that the not sleeping for 4 days is a symptom of opiate withdraw. I used to be a drug addict for many years, and kicking heroin (opiates) is nothing nice… if you weren’t on opiates for a long time then disregard this comment. Just something that popped out at me from this post.

It was at least 9 months, so normally I’d agree, but estrogen insomnia is just so specific. Any blanket and you’re 1000 degrees in 2 minutes covered in water, all after the 7 day acute phase (I actually slept and ate during the 7 day thanks to cannabis) - I also had every other symptom. I know drug withdrawal insomnia, it may have played a role, but there’s no doubt estrogen was also playing a role. The thing that got me to sleep finally was a 60mg Nolvadex bomb… irresponsible I know but I was desperate to sleep and one of my arthritis meds inhibits CYP2D6 so I don’t metabolize nolva perfectly.

EDIT: worth noting, dick has been working perfectly throughout all of this, and I have some red skin on it from the high dose aromasin. might not be very helpful info though as I could take a gram of nand and nothing else and it would still probably work (not so humble-brag sorry not sorry)

 

[cmlaracy]

Sorry to bump but I could really use some suggestions, this shit is crazy. I’m seemingly going through PCT estrogen rebound while still on.

 

[DNPstoney]

cmlaracy" pid='34203' dateline='1544894048:

Sorry to bump but I could really use some suggestions, this shit is crazy. I’m seemingly going through PCT estrogen rebound while still on.

Don’t mean to be a dick, but it looks like: You are taking an AI already, you are taking nolva already, you have letro on the way, and you still have methyl estro in your system so you cant get an accurate E2 reading. I don’t think there is much advice to give you, since you seems to have all your bases covered.

The only advice really is to wait a few days for your letro to arrive. When it does, get your E2 tested again (hopefully you can get an accurate reading), and then start on a letro dosage. Then, you can get your E2 checked again after a few weeks to see how you are doing on the letro dosage, or if you should drop it completely and return to just Asin.

 

[cmlaracy]

DNPstoney" pid='34210' dateline='1544898163:

cmlaracy" pid='34203' dateline='1544894048:

Sorry to bump but I could really use some suggestions, this shit is crazy. I’m seemingly going through PCT estrogen rebound while still on.

Don’t mean to be a dick, but it looks like: You are taking an AI already, you are taking nolva already, you have letro on the way, and you still have methyl estro in your system so you cant get an accurate E2 reading. I don’t think there is much advice to give you, since you seems to have all your bases covered.

The only advice really is to wait a few days for your letro to arrive. When it does, get your E2 tested again (hopefully you can get an accurate reading), and then start on a letro dosage. Then, you can get your E2 checked again after a few weeks to see how you are doing on the letro dosage, or if you should drop it completely and return to just Asin.

I agree with everything you say but the methyl estrogen, dropped the trest over 3 weeks ago and only managed two doses after the withdrawals, and dropped it entirely for the withdrawals. So in 4 weeks I’ve had 40mg trest and it was 3 weeks ago. It’s trest ace not decanoate.

 

[DankLifts]

Way too much going on with your body to know. Post acute opiate withdrawal can last months. Are you sure you have actual blood work done and aren’t just going off feel? Opiates WRECK your system. Absolutely WRECK them. 200mg of oxycodone and an unspecified amount of dilaudid, daily? No tapering and complete cessation? It will take your body sometime to recover from that. That is a large habit.

 

[cmlaracy]

DankLifts" pid='34218' dateline='1544904961:

Way too much going on with your body to know. Post acute opiate withdrawal can last months. Are you sure you have actual blood work done and aren’t just going off feel? Opiates WRECK your system. Absolutely WRECK them. 200mg of oxycodone and an unspecified amount of dilaudid, daily? No tapering and complete cessation? It will take your body sometime to recover from that. That is a large habit.

I’m thinking this as well. I was determined to get off them so I went completely cold turkey. Thanks to cannabis and dextromethorphan it was bearable. The post acute is bad, really bad, and moving slowly. I think my system is just trying to rebound so I’m making huge amounts of inter-testicular testosterone who’s estrogen conversion isn’t effected by aromasin.

 

[FixerUpper]

cmlaracy" pid='34220' dateline='1544906653:

DankLifts" pid='34218' dateline='1544904961:

Way too much going on with your body to know. Post acute opiate withdrawal can last months. Are you sure you have actual blood work done and aren’t just going off feel? Opiates WRECK your system. Absolutely WRECK them. 200mg of oxycodone and an unspecified amount of dilaudid, daily? No tapering and complete cessation? It will take your body sometime to recover from that. That is a large habit.

I’m thinking this as well. I was determined to get off them so I went completely cold turkey. Thanks to cannabis and dextromethorphan it was bearable. The post acute is bad, really bad, and moving slowly. I think my system is just trying to rebound so I’m making huge amounts of inter-testicular testosterone who’s estrogen conversion isn’t effected by aromasin.

You are definitely not producing huge amounts of intratesticular testosterone right now. It’s impossible for that to be the case.

Honestly man, it’s impossible that your estradiol is out of control right now. The only way that would be possible is if your testosterone vial actually contained estradiol.

Your endocrine system is, in no way, “trying to rebound” right now. That is physiologically impossible, given that you’ve been using (and are currently using) androgens.

 

[cmlaracy]

FixerUpper" pid='34254' dateline='1544929380:

cmlaracy" pid='34220' dateline='1544906653:

DankLifts" pid='34218' dateline='1544904961:

Way too much going on with your body to know. Post acute opiate withdrawal can last months. Are you sure you have actual blood work done and aren’t just going off feel? Opiates WRECK your system. Absolutely WRECK them. 200mg of oxycodone and an unspecified amount of dilaudid, daily? No tapering and complete cessation? It will take your body sometime to recover from that. That is a large habit.

I’m thinking this as well. I was determined to get off them so I went completely cold turkey. Thanks to cannabis and dextromethorphan it was bearable. The post acute is bad, really bad, and moving slowly. I think my system is just trying to rebound so I’m making huge amounts of inter-testicular testosterone who’s estrogen conversion isn’t effected by aromasin.

You are definitely not producing huge amounts of intratesticular testosterone right now. It’s impossible for that to be the case.

Honestly man, it’s impossible that your estradiol is out of control right now. The only way that would be possible is if your testosterone vial actually contained estradiol.

Your endocrine system is, in no way, “trying to rebound” right now. That is physiologically impossible, given that you’ve been using (and are currently using) androgens.

This has been my logic and why I’ve been confused. I shouldn’t be producing anything (my testicles have grown a bit actually). But the fact is my estrogen is high, blood work confirming and every side effect under the sun. Also I’d know if my estrogen is low, I have arthritis, I wouldn’t be able to move if my estrogen was low. My joints feel lubed if anything from water retention.

All of my stuff is from Checkmate labs, so my test ain’t est. Even my god damn eyelids are covered in oil for fucks sake.

 

[Pharmahgh]

cmlaracy" pid='34165' dateline='1544847817:

Going to try and keep this quick but it’s complicated. I was on a cycle of 100mg test, 175mg trest, 300mg nandrolone, and 600-800mg boldenone per week. Throughout the cycle all I needed was 12.5mg aromasin EoD. Estrogen was DIALED in for 18 weeks.

Then I decided to come off my painkillers as I no longer needed them; I have psoriatic arthritis. I was on ~200mg of oxycodone a day and some oxymorphone (I know). Last time I came off opiates I was natural and had a huge estrogen spike as my system came back online - opiates suppress my natty test by 75%. It made the weeks after the first acute week hell; I was natural so I didn’t have any AI’s.

This time I figured that wouldn’t happen; I’m completely shut down from Trest and Nand… I lowered my doses significantly for the week I’d withdraw as I wouldn’t be lifting. Did it cold turkey in 7 days.

About 3 or 4 days after the 7 day acute phase, my estrogen MASSIVELY spikes, so much I can’t sleep for 4 straight days. So I cut out everything except test and one last dose of EQ for it’s AI properties as 25mg aromasin ED wasn’t cutting it. I’m now down to nothing but 150mg test a week and still have high estrogen symptoms taking 25mg aromasin every damn day (with a high fat meal).

Here’s the kicker: I’ve been taking 25mg aromasin ED for over two weeks and I STILL cant get my estrogen down. No they aren’t bunk, they worked all cycle long and are from CML. So to get things a bit more under control I added in 40mg nolva ED.

So for almost 3 weeks I’ve been taking 25mg aromasin and 40mg Nolvadex ED and my estrogen is still out of range. On TRT test only! I have arthritis, I’d know if my estrogen was low after taking one step. Besides, I have every high estrogen symptom in the book.

The only thing I can come up with is that despite being on highly suppressive gear, my system is trying to bounce back from the removal of the massive dose of opiates (was on them for a while too) and so I’m going through a mini post cycle estrogen rebound. Literally only thing I can think of. I can’t even take my damn HCG because 250iu’s has me hot-flashing like a menopausal woman.

Anyone have ANY ideas? I’m stumped. Where THE FUCK is this estrogen coming from?!

First of all hats off to you brother for getting off. Not an easy thing to do, Ive been there.

Maybe this article can help to shed some light on whats going on

https://www.mascc.org/assets/documents/pain_Impact_Opioids_Endocrine_Katz.pdf

Basically whats happening is your having massive estrogen rebound. The opiates were suppressing estrogen production in a sense, at least thats what I got from the article but you have to read it through. wish I could help more. Good luck

 

[cmlaracy]

Pharmahgh" pid='34261' dateline='1544933787:

cmlaracy" pid='34165' dateline='1544847817:

Going to try and keep this quick but it’s complicated. I was on a cycle of 100mg test, 175mg trest, 300mg nandrolone, and 600-800mg boldenone per week. Throughout the cycle all I needed was 12.5mg aromasin EoD. Estrogen was DIALED in for 18 weeks.

Then I decided to come off my painkillers as I no longer needed them; I have psoriatic arthritis. I was on ~200mg of oxycodone a day and some oxymorphone (I know). Last time I came off opiates I was natural and had a huge estrogen spike as my system came back online - opiates suppress my natty test by 75%. It made the weeks after the first acute week hell; I was natural so I didn’t have any AI’s.

This time I figured that wouldn’t happen; I’m completely shut down from Trest and Nand… I lowered my doses significantly for the week I’d withdraw as I wouldn’t be lifting. Did it cold turkey in 7 days.

About 3 or 4 days after the 7 day acute phase, my estrogen MASSIVELY spikes, so much I can’t sleep for 4 straight days. So I cut out everything except test and one last dose of EQ for it’s AI properties as 25mg aromasin ED wasn’t cutting it. I’m now down to nothing but 150mg test a week and still have high estrogen symptoms taking 25mg aromasin every damn day (with a high fat meal).

Here’s the kicker: I’ve been taking 25mg aromasin ED for over two weeks and I STILL cant get my estrogen down. No they aren’t bunk, they worked all cycle long and are from CML. So to get things a bit more under control I added in 40mg nolva ED.

So for almost 3 weeks I’ve been taking 25mg aromasin and 40mg Nolvadex ED and my estrogen is still out of range. On TRT test only! I have arthritis, I’d know if my estrogen was low after taking one step. Besides, I have every high estrogen symptom in the book.

The only thing I can come up with is that despite being on highly suppressive gear, my system is trying to bounce back from the removal of the massive dose of opiates (was on them for a while too) and so I’m going through a mini post cycle estrogen rebound. Literally only thing I can think of. I can’t even take my damn HCG because 250iu’s has me hot-flashing like a menopausal woman.

Anyone have ANY ideas? I’m stumped. Where THE FUCK is this estrogen coming from?!

First of all hats off to you brother for getting off. Not an easy thing to do, Ive been there.

Maybe this article can help to shed some light on whats going on

https://www.mascc.org/assets/documents/pain_Impact_Opioids_Endocrine_Katz.pdf

Basically whats happening is your having massive estrogen rebound. The opiates were suppressing estrogen production in a sense, at least thats what I got from the article but you have to read it through. wish I could help more. Good luck

Thank you so much, not knowing kills me. I’m a biochemist and medicinal chemist so when I can’t answer something like this I get frustrated, ESPECIALLY when the side effects are making my life hell. So basically the AI’s aren’t doing much and I need SERMS more than I do the AI’s. This makes sense too, as I feel much better after a dose of nolva.

 

[Scuba_Greaves]

Ex-opiate addict here as well.

200mg/day, God damn!! Hoping you have good insurance, because that would be one fucking expensive habit!!

Anyways, I don’t know too much about your estrogen problems, but it’s going to be difficult to help you because your case seems so specific.

Hope it gets under control!!

 

[cmlaracy]

Scuba Greaves" pid='34269' dateline='1544936267:

Ex-opiate addict here as well.

200mg/day, God damn!! Hoping you have good insurance, because that would be one fucking expensive habit!!

Anyways, I don’t know too much about your estrogen problems, but it’s going to be difficult to help you because your case seems so specific.

Hope it gets under control!!

Just to clarify, not an addict, have come off easily 3 times when the pain fades. I use them when I’m injured or in a flare up and then I drop them, yes it’s brutal but that’s my life with severe psoriatic arthritis. I’m lucky in other ways.

Based on the article, I’m going through rebound while still on androgens because opiates shut down GnRH which is upstream of LH and FSH. My GnRH is bouncing back hard, and pushing my LH and FSH despite the androgens. It’s very clearly shown in the article in a diagram.

I have it under control enough with the nolva that I’m not miserable (0 cystic acne), but no one likes hot flashes and all that fun stuff.

My insurance covered 160mg, the rest was on me (another 60-100mg a day counting the oxymorphone). Yes it was insanely expensive, but pain will make you do almost anything if it’s bad enough.

Also, I think I’m experiencing the worst possible case of this, as my natty test floats around 1250ng/dL. Yes I’m serious. It has caused issues in sports in the past as well as physicals, my docs accuse me of using test when I’m natty.

---

So basically I’m getting a GnRH rebound, upstream of LH and FSH, so they can ignore the androgens, on a system that usually runs above 1200 ng/dL naturally. I think we have this figured out.

 

[Scuba_Greaves]

cmlaracy" pid='34271' dateline='1544936545:

Scuba Greaves" pid='34269' dateline='1544936267:

Ex-opiate addict here as well.

200mg/day, God damn!! Hoping you have good insurance, because that would be one fucking expensive habit!!

Anyways, I don’t know too much about your estrogen problems, but it’s going to be difficult to help you because your case seems so specific.

Hope it gets under control!!

Just to clarify, not an addict, have come off easily 3 times when the pain fades. I use them when I’m injured or in a flare up and then I drop them, yes it’s brutal but that’s my life with severe psoriatic arthritis. I’m lucky in other ways.

Based on the article, I’m going through rebound while still on androgens because opiates shut down GnRH which is upstream of LH and FSH. My GnRH is bouncing back hard, and pushing my LH and FSH despite the androgens. It’s very clearly shown in the article in a diagram.

I have it under control enough with the nolva that I’m not miserable (0 cystic acne), but no one likes hot flashes and all that fun stuff.

My insurance covered 160mg, the rest was on me (another 60-100mg a day counting the oxymorphone). Yes it was insanely expensive, but pain will make you do almost anything if it’s bad enough.

Also, I think I’m experiencing the worst possible case of this, as my natty test floats around 1250ng/dL. Yes I’m serious. It has caused issues in sports in the past as well as physicals, my docs accuse me of using test when I’m natty.

---

So basically I’m getting a GnRH rebound, upstream of LH and FSH, so they can ignore the androgens, on a system that usually runs above 1200 ng/dL naturally. I think we have this figured out.

---

Your body went through withdrawal…you were Physically addicted…obviously I am not judging you, it’s just a fact.

Hope things work out soon!!

 

[cmlaracy]

Scuba Greaves" pid='34273' dateline='1544938199:

cmlaracy" pid='34271' dateline='1544936545:

Scuba Greaves" pid='34269' dateline='1544936267:

Ex-opiate addict here as well.

200mg/day, God damn!! Hoping you have good insurance, because that would be one fucking expensive habit!!

Anyways, I don’t know too much about your estrogen problems, but it’s going to be difficult to help you because your case seems so specific.

Hope it gets under control!!

Just to clarify, not an addict, have come off easily 3 times when the pain fades. I use them when I’m injured or in a flare up and then I drop them, yes it’s brutal but that’s my life with severe psoriatic arthritis. I’m lucky in other ways.

Based on the article, I’m going through rebound while still on androgens because opiates shut down GnRH which is upstream of LH and FSH. My GnRH is bouncing back hard, and pushing my LH and FSH despite the androgens. It’s very clearly shown in the article in a diagram.

I have it under control enough with the nolva that I’m not miserable (0 cystic acne), but no one likes hot flashes and all that fun stuff.

My insurance covered 160mg, the rest was on me (another 60-100mg a day counting the oxymorphone). Yes it was insanely expensive, but pain will make you do almost anything if it’s bad enough.

Also, I think I’m experiencing the worst possible case of this, as my natty test floats around 1250ng/dL. Yes I’m serious. It has caused issues in sports in the past as well as physicals, my docs accuse me of using test when I’m natty.

---

So basically I’m getting a GnRH rebound, upstream of LH and FSH, so they can ignore the androgens, on a system that usually runs above 1200 ng/dL naturally. I think we have this figured out.

---

Your body went through withdrawal…you were Physically addicted…obviously I am not judging you, it’s just a fact.

Hope things work out soon!!

---

I appreciate it, but I tend to like to draw a line between physical addiction and mental addiction. Physical addiction happens regardless if you take opiates every day for pain and does not make you an addict. Inability to stop and withdraw fully due to mental addiction is what makes you an “addict”, a medically defined mental illness.

I really do appreciate the kind words brother.